Episode 73 - Jon Castelli
Show Notes
Live with Matt Rad - Episode 73
Nov 30, 2021
w/ Jon Castelli - Week 63
Show notes by: Bradley Will
Q: Any good resources to learn about mastering?
Matt:
I’m going to do an hour on mastering with Dale Becker in the future.
Jon:
I’d like to do a 3-way episode in addition to that to discuss my long-standing mixer/mastering relationship with Dale.
Q: How does Jon’s Attack Wall setup compare to a normal room?
Jon:
It works for me. It could be better up here in my studio, but there’s no reason to change how it sounds now, because it works. I do 100 songs a year and nobody’s pissed by the records I’m sending back.
The panels could be thicker still and not so reflective on the backside.
If I were going to do my room over again, I probably wouldn’t retain the attack wall and I’d have Unfuck do my room and build panels.
The back wall from my mix position is 80 ft away, so there are no low-end issues from the room that need to be combated. That said, an attack wall isn’t going to fix that kind of issue, so I’m fortunate not to have to worry about solving that issue.
My setup work despite the inability of the attack wall to absorb proper low-end.
Q: How do A-list records come out so loud on streaming services without sounding super limited?
Matt:
We did 2 hours on the topic of loudness on Episodes 36 and 37.
Q: How much did you guys charge when you were first starting and how much/how often did it go up?
Matt:
When I started out it was almost always $0.
If and when things made money then they we would deal with it.
The first time I charged, I charged $10/hr in my parent’s basement, then I moved it up to $15. By then I was making serious money for a 15 year old.
It’s hard to answer this because it depends on exactly what your role is and what your relationship is wife people.
I do so many different roles that my deals usually lump them in together.
I have a major label rate. Sometimes it’s more money and less points and sometimes it’s less money and more points.
What has always upped my rate throughout my career has been doing great work that other people love. Then once you’re in demand you can raise your rate to meet that demand.
Jon:
My beginning was all free. Then I built a studio with my dad when I was 19. It had a day rate that also included me. I was probably making close to $0 after costs.
I never had a “per song” rate until I moved to LA. Tony Maserati (my mentor) came up with a fee. I believe it was around $1,000/mix. Give or take a few few hundred.
I felt confident with this rate because of the implied co-sign from someone as accomplished as Tony.
On the Macklemore and Ryan Lewis record, which was my first record of mixes under my name, I think I charged $2k per mix for that.
Once I had a breakthrough with the Khalid mix my rate went up to where it is today.
These are all self-imposed changes decided on by me and my manager.
Matt:
Doing great work is far and away the best thing for all of your business.
If you make great records and people work like it they will seek you out.
As soon as you hit these career signposts you can justify raising your rates.
The other big thing is having a manager and someone to represent you. That legitimizes music professionals quite a bit. Get them when you have more work than you can take on.
Jon:
I got my first manager, Evan Peters, when I was working with Tony.
Until you are getting these rates, keep filling your calendar. Because one of those sessions is going to get you to the next step.
Matt:
I think the things people usually need first is an attorney. Someone to help you negotiate deals as they start to come in.
Moving to LA
Matt:
This is a topic that will always be asked and always be interesting. A big reason I’m going to be back in LA is because it’s warm, it’s international, and it’s an exciting place to be.
I love LA, but the things that really allowed me to break into the music industry were made with my friends in Oakland.
If you can put yourself in a position where you can be influenced by the people around you to be inspired and make things that’s going to be better for you than most any logistical situation.
Moving to LA is not necessarily the issue to your problems. That will happen through time spent making great things with your peers.
Jon:
I think the best records are being made outside of LA, but great records are still being made in LA.
Q: What does co-mixing look like?
Jon:
I’m doing co-mixing for my Atmos mixes.
For me it’s very specific: There’s a co-engineer who the artist has developed a very trusted relationships with. They’re with the artist everyday.
When it’s time to finish the record that engineer might have gotten the mix 90% of the way there but understand that they either don’t have the know-how to get it over the finish line or that they don’t have the necessary objectivity anymore and need to bring in another mixer who’s been outside of the project.
In these situations the engineer is acting as the bridge to convey the artist’s intentions to the mixer. The mixer is inviting the engineer to share in the credit.
The producer/engineer wins because they now have a mix credit and can use it to become a mixer
Jon is winning because he is now mixing a song that he wouldn’t otherwise have the chance to mix before.
It’s a way to share and have other perspectives come in without having anyone’s work feel undervalued.
I co-mix everything in Atmos with Mike Miller these days.
We’ll trade off who’s heavy-lifting each song.
If I mixed the song I’ll usually mix those and for the tracks that, say, Manny did Mike will do most of the Atmos mix on those.
Occasionally one of us will throw out an idea and the other person will step aside and say “Cool. You do it. It’s your vision.”
I don’t care who did the good idea, as long as the good idea makes it into the mix.
In the past I wasn’t comfortable with it, but now I’m much more open to this relationship.
Up until the mix process, everything is very collaborative between the artist, producer, and engineer and has been vetted by everyone up to that point. Co-mixing allows that social aspect to keep going without having the entire song funneled through a single mixer’s vision at the last step.
Matt:
The more collaborative you are the more you are going to benefit in your career and the better off everything is going to be.
“Hits, not splits”. Whatever it takes to make it the biggest song is worth doing.
With very few exceptions, Max Martin is not the sole writer on any of his hits.
Q: What’s a piece of gear you can’t live without?
Matt:
#1 - A great computer that works.
#2 - Monitoring.
#3 - A great vocal mic.
Jon:
For me it’s my PMC monitors in a good room.
I do love all of my tube gear. However I could go to another studio without it and still mix.
There’s not one thing I couldn’t live without.
Q: What are the first things that you approach in a mix?
Jon:
My favorite bits of songs are the low end and the vocal, so I often start with them.
Sometimes it’s whatever jumps out and calls me to work on it.
I try to approach with broad strokes. Nothing too specific.
For me, the starting point is the rough mix that the artist provided to me. My assistant is setting up my mix session such that it sounds as close as possible to the rough mix, and I mix from there.
I often start by figuring out what the approach the artist has in mind and then finding the best way to accentuate and solidify that quality.
Quite often Tony Maserati and I would sit on the couch and listen to the songs numerous times before we would even start mixing.
Listen and try to understand what the approach is. If you don’t know, get on the phone with the artist. That’s your best chance and achieving what they’ve hired you for.
Matt:
One of the first things you should do is figure out how to understand what they’re trying to do.
Jon:
9/10 times I understand the reference point. I believe this is why I get hired. That’s what gets me there and get’s me invited back for the next gig. That’s why I am where I am in my career.
I don’t like listening to the rough mix until the session is prepped, so that I’m able to act quickly on my first instinct.
Matt:
I think one of the most underrated philosophical things done by successful record makers is to go on their first instinct. They create situations where their first instinct gets acted on quickly.
The initial emotional burst in working on a song is often the most valuable thing.
Whenever I’m opening the first session of the morning, I always power through it for the first 15 minutes and act on my instinct and seize on the new perspective that I have hearing it with fresh ears.
